Littleton, New Hampshire

Approved Work Session Minutes Feb 4, 2008

Town of Littleton
Board of Selectman Work Session
Town Offices Conference Room

Present: Vice Chairman Eddy Moore, Selectman Brien Ward, Town Manager Chuck Connell, Chief Paul Smith

Citizens Present: Mary Edick, Jan Edick, Ron Bolt, Mary Daly, Linda Massimilla, Juanita Gilpin, Dr. Gilpin, Sharon Craigie, Art Tighe, Richard Massimilla, Mike Doucette, Jewel Fogg.

Vice Chairman Eddy Moore called the work session to order at 3:00 PM.

Vice Chairman Eddy Moore said that he had concerns. Eddy stated that he felt the Board should have a good understanding with the Police Facility Study Committee. Eddy said that he wanted to discuss how the facility was going to be presented. Eddy went on to say that he had concerns about the utilities. Eddy said that maybe he does not have the latest information and would like to know what is to be covered regarding the utilities. Vice Chairman Eddy Moore said it that he had been watching Channel 2 and a statement was made that the Water & Light Department was going to install the utilities for free. Eddy went on to say that this statement is not true. There have been no estimates given from the Water & Light Department and he challenges that statement.

Richard Massimilla asked Vice Chairman Eddy Moore if that was a question. Eddy responded by saying yes it was a question. Richard said the committee went to a Water & Light Department meeting and asked what they could do. Richard said that he spoke to Mr. Harrington who gave the committee some dollar figures so they could get an idea of the cost. Richard went on to say that they are still trying to nail down the costs of all the work they are going to do. Richard went on to say that he never said that the Water & Light Department would do it all for free. Richard said that when he spoke to Rich Harrington he was asked with about primary and secondary. Richard explained that the primary is everything the power company will do for the hook up the secondary is the contractor. Keith told him that they are responsible to pay for everything from the road up to the building. Basically aside from talking about fees the contractor has in his sight costs they will pay for themselves. Richard asked Vice Chairman Eddy Moore if his explanation answered his question.

Eddy said he was not sure. Richard Massimilla said the contractor is responsible for the site costs of $150,000. Mary Daly asked Eddy for a clear explanation his of question again. Eddy said he wanted to make sure we have enough money for the utilities to cover the cost of the site. Richard said that he had asked what the cost would be from Perry Goodell. He also asked Perry if he had concerns with the domestic water line. Richard said that Perry conveyed it should be adequate for drinking water. Richard said that Perry had told him the cost would be very small but he was not specific. When he asked about the power from the pole Perry asked Richard if the power was single or three phase. Perry told Richard that if they put in three phase, it would cost $10,000 due to the need to put new poles in and possibility a new transformer. Richard said we would have to pay $1,000 for single phase and $1,500 for the water. Richard went onto say that right now we don't have that as a specific line item.

Vice Chairman Eddy Moore said that he is taking the cost information from December 31st minutes when the cost allowance was $200,000. Eddy questioned why it is $150,000. Richard said it is $150,000 right now. Mike Doucette wanted to keep it $1.75 million so we all got together to cut the numbers. We made ways to contact people to help us out with the costs. Richard said the Highway Department said they would help with the approval of the board. We were able to go from $200,000 to $150,000. Richard explained that they were over by $139,000 and that is what they had to cut. They cut from the site development, and concrete work. Richard said it was included in the original plan and they took $44,200 out. Richard said that the painting went from $26,000 down to $12,000 by using Grafton County Jail workers. Richard said they left $12,000 in the account to cover for additional painting. The generator costs were removed from our plans. Richard said that Carlton Hindbenburg found a generator at the White Farm with only 1,800 hours on it. The generator was purchased by donation and approved by the Board from the White Farm. Mike Doucette said the committee is still trying to cut as best they could. It is an open book process. If there is something out of whack he believes they could recoup. Richard said they saved $12,000 on the heating by going to gas instead of fuel oil. They are trying to keep the cost down and still come up with a responsible building. Vice Chairman Eddy Moore asked if there was anything in here about a 20-year mortgage. Richard said they have budgeted $20,000 for used furniture.

Vice Chairman Eddy Moore said there is one other thing he would like to bring up. They have done nothing on the Kittridge property. Both Mike Doucette and Richard Massimilla answered Eddy's question by stating that they have done nothing with the Kittridge property. Their charge was to make it and put it on Town property. Eddy asked them if that is where they plan on putting the building. Mike Doucette said yes. Eddy then asked about the contamination. Richard said they had test borings done on both properties. There were 34 done and they did all the test borings. The very last northern test boring on Town owned property has a trace of contaminant. They recommend we have it tested further. We need to see what the contamination is for the water. Richard said the committee asked Horizon when they could do it about two weeks ago. Last week the report came back stating that there was contamination in the ground water that will not affect the project. However, there is concern because of the contents of the contamination. You have to fix it once it is identified. Horizon said we have to transfer all communication regarding the contamination to the Town Manager and the State. Richard reported that has been done. What they have suggested will not affect the project. Two things need to be done. The first is to dig it up and find out what is down there. Richard said there is a possibility there is a tank down there. It is not something that has been filtered through. Richard said if it goes far will have to remove it. The state will recommend that two monitor wells be drilled to monitor over a period of time to see if it the contamination better or worse. If it is for a private firm they have to pay the full bill of $10,000, Richard said that if it is for a municipality there is a super fund where the State will reimburse all but $5,000.

Selectman Brien Ward said he understands that we have to raise the money first. Brien said we also are responsible for monitoring costs. Brien said to move ahead you have to dig up whatever is down there and clean it up before construction. Mike Doucette said it is behind where we are building. Linda Massimilla asked if question the contamination be coming from the Kittridge property. Richard said he did not know no one knows where it is coming from. Richard said he wanted to emphasize it would not affect the project. Linda said that if it is coming from the Kittridge property then it is their responsibility. Selectman Brien Ward said it was a junkyard for years. Richard said that he had talked to the Town Manager Chuck Connell about this last week. Richard said he thought that Clinton Clough might know where the tanks are. Brien said the state is supposed to know where all the tanks are.


This then led into a discussion on how to determine oil tank sites and ways to cut costs for this expense. Brien said there are companies that specialize in this. Town Manager Chuck Connell said Horizon needs to be contacted first. Mike Doucette said they wanted to add some funding tonight to cover this cost. Rather than wait to see what we need to do. They have been moving forward to find out what is the legal way to address this issue and the cost.

Selectman Brien Ward said that he watched a presentation on Channel 2 regarding the sprinkler system. Brien said that at the presentation the committee spoke vigorously against it. Richard told Brien that he was correct. In December we did not say anything about a sprinkler system. Richard said that when they got the sheets back the sprinkler system was on the ledger. That is when we went over everything line by line. Richard said that in early January they had a meeting. They put it to a vote and the second item was the sprinkler. They took a poll and after discussing it they found they did not have enough facts. Richard stated that Bonnet, Page, & Stone came up with more information and called the insurance company. They also spoke to the Fire Chief. Richard said the list was about 8 bullet items and they took a vote of 13 not in favor. One member was absent. Richard said the committee made the decision to take it out because of the costs. Richard said we had to justify why. The code does not require a public building to be equipped with a sprinkler if the building is occupied with no one staying overnight. We all agreed we would go with it. Richard said to get back to your point is that Brien and Eddy insisted it should be put in. Richard said the Fire Chief said they should have it in.

Selectman Brien Ward asked why were we told to go ahead and do it. Richard advised Brien that Paul Smith did not tell Brien to do it. They had voted as a group not to put the sprinklers in. Mike Doucette said they were under the impression that you wanted us to do it. But they could not fit in the number of what they proposed the building to be. Brien said the site development cost was originally $4,000 and now is $5,000.
Brien said that he had spoken to Mike who had given the $200,000 as a good number. Brien said that by reading the minutes somebody decided the $200,000 was not enough. Brien asked if there was money in the budget for sight development. Brien said that no one ever told us that there is no money. Brien recommends they go back to the original budget. Brien said there is no operating money in the budget for this. Brien asked Richard if he would be willing to do that. Richard said he would have to confer with the committee. Mary Daly said they could not agree until they speak to George Chartier. Brien stated that there is no money in the budget for George to do the work.

Richard advised Brien that George dug the test pit for us, because this was a function for the Town. Richard stated that George had said it was not a problem. Richard said he was operating under the assumption and wrongly. Selectman Brien Ward said he is not talking about a dig, we are taking about something else. Richard said he feels if the Highway Department can do it without any expense then what is the problem. Brien told Richard there is no money in the budget to support this project. There is no $50,000 in the budget.

Mary Daly said they have a $75,000 contingency fund so certainly some of that money could be used. Brien said you don't have enough. Brien asked if this a design build or a construction management project. Richard said that it is a design build. Brien said he had concerns with that. Brien said that Tony Ilacqua approached him and had an issue regarding propane. Propane could result with higher costs. Brien said that he spoke to a mechanical engineer. A gallon of oil is 100,000 BTU's. Propane would be 1.3 gallons per every gallon of oil so the savings you are reporting are going to be consumed by higher operating expenses. Richard said there are costs associated with an oil burner, which are not associated with a propane tank. Brien said that there is a 30% difference.

Jan Edick said there are advantages of using propane. It is much more efficient and cleaner and can be used year round. The tanks can also be buried which is no longer true for fuel oil. Jan said he had the same concerns as Tony and the thing that convinced him is that what they are doing makes economic sense.

Selectman Brien Ward said that when he met with the committee the last time, he was told the operating costs were $8 to $10 per square foot. Brien said that he met with Wayne and was told the costs were $3 to $9 when compared the opera house estimates. Wayne also advised Brien that there was an additional $8,000 in costs for design purposes, mechanical and electrical work. Brien pointed out the other services that will be a cost. Brien said the money they are using is not accurate. Brien also noted that there was no money for janitorial etc. Paul Smith advised Brien the janitorial is already in our budget. We would just be adding to what we already have that in there. Paul Smith said that if you are thinking numbers and adding it into our budget it is already in the budget. Paul Smith said he called Amerigas and was quoted $2.30 for propane. Paul said they figure the cost would be $5,800 per year for heating and cooling.

Richard said he wanted to bring up one more thing. Richard stated that they would save actually space without having a boiler. The other thing he wanted to bring up is the generator. The generator saved us $25,000 to $60,000. Richard said what it boils down to is we saved a lot of money. Brien said to Richard; let me tell you what one citizen said to me about the generator. The citizen said to Brien (would you buy a brand new dump truck and put a 20 year old motor in it.) Brien this is a $1.75 million package. Brien said that if the voters come back to us and if you spend $1.75 million they would expect there would be a new generator put in.

Mike Doucette said that Brian did not do a good analogy on the dump truck. Mike said the generator is a calculated risk but it is also a good deal. Brien said he has a real concern on the painting issue. Brien said he thinks there are 50 to 60 doors. This is going to be a very busy property and to have a group of inmates for a $1.75 million project is not something he is comfortable with.

Selectman Brien Ward said that he has always said it needs to be complete. The reason you get into to trouble is you want one entity to be responsible. If there is any problem it is the taxpayers that get screwed. You said it was a turnkey building. Richard said that is not true they were charged with a building. Richard said they have a building that we think is an excellent building. We knew we could not spend $2.5 million, so we hacked it down. Richard told Brien that when he comes up with something like the generator that is wrong. Richard said he could assure anyone it would be painted properly. Richard said again that it is a good building and Brien's attacking the generator is unfair. Richard stressed again that it is a good building at a good price.

Sharon Craigie said she had a comment about the inmates not doing a good job. Sharon said that she has seen some of the work they have done and it was very good. Sharon asked Brien if he had not looked at some of the projects the inmates have worked on. Brien said that he did not have the time to go around and he was not willing to take the risk with the taxpayer's money. Sharon asked Brien if he would buy anything from them. Brien told Sharon she could do anything she wanted to with her money.

Mike Doucette said they did a space needs analysis. Richard Massimilla said they do not want to go through used furniture. Selectman Brien Ward said that at the last meeting you came in and said that this is the number it would be. Richard asked Brien which number is that? Brien said it was the $1.75 million.

Juanita Gilpin told Brien and Eddy that both have been very remiss in their duties. We have had two months to do what a committee does in one year. You only came to criticize us when you should have supported us. Richard said that he had thought everything was on the Channel tapes. Richard said that Bob O'Conner butchered their presentation. Richard said that people were happy about our presentation and he feels bad because you are against us. We have a meeting tonight and we have no clue where to go with this. What can you tell us what to do with this, how can you help us?

Selectman Brien Ward said the community needs a complete project with all costs covered with no money back from any other areas. As far as the painting goes he is not happy. Brien went on to say that a $75,000 contingency is not enough. Richard asked Brien what he wanted to do tonight. Brien said that he watched the presentation on Channel 2 and he was very concerned if it was a design build or construction management project. Brien further said that he feels the $50,000 should go in for site costs. Brien said he does not want it being presented at less costs. Mike Doucette said that Bill Wetherbee also spoke about the heating and that it must have been edited out of the tape.

Selectman Brien Ward said that the Board needs the committees support for the sprinkler system, and to add the $50,000. Richard Massimilla said the request is to ask the sprinkler and add the $50,000 for site development. Brien said the reason for this is that it completes the project. Richard said he could not make such a deal, as he is not the complete committee. Brien told Richard that he wanted a sprinkler system from the very beginning. Brien said that one of the reasons the Opera House was condemned was due to vehicles being parked in the building. Richard asked Brien if it would be ok with you if we agree to sprinkler system. Richard then said lets say it passes on the 11th next month, he asked Eddy Moore what size pipe would have to be put in. Eddy said they would put in an 8-inch pipe. Juanita asked who is paying for it. Brien said that it comes from the $79,000. Juanita asked what was the $100,000 for Trahan. Brien said the $79,000 it is for the water line and sprinkler system.

Selectman Brien Ward said the $100,000 is if the Kittridge property is purchased. Town Manager Chuck Connell said that for clarification it is not being purchased it is being donated. Brien said that a day after Christmas he found out the Trahan's bought the property he has had no involvement at all. Richard asked Brien if he was the lawyer for Trahan and you don't have any idea where the 2.9 acres are. Richard asked Brien why he did not know where the land is when they recommended the Police Facility be put on the Kittridge property. Brien said that he is not recommending anything. Richard said that he had been into this very deeply and pointed out that no testing has been done on the Kittridge property. Richard would like to see this community to have a Police Department and we are doing his best to make sure it is on Town property. Richard said if we go into that meeting and you are against us we are in trouble and that statement is man to man. Richard said that we have worked to damn hard. Richard told Brien that they have had some differences but would like Brien to tell him what he would like done and he would go to the committee to fix it.

Sharon Craigie said that she had spoke to Mrs. Clinton Clough and she was told that Clint has known that it was never going to be where we chose the location. She wants to know why we were not warned until up to three hours before the deliberative meeting. A map of the Kittredge property was shown to those present. Sharon said that they have never seen this drawing. Sharon said again that Clint Clough knew where it was going to be. Sharon said that she was still curious as to why three hours before the meeting we are being lambasted. Richard Massimilla said that no one ever approached the committee. Brien reminded Richard that he wanted to stress one more time he has not been involved with any of these plans. Richard said that when you say you guys the only two were Burt and Eddy. Brien told Richard that for the umpteenth time he has not been involved. Richard said that Burt warned him that something was going on but he could not tell them about it. Mr. Daly asked if this whole thing over Article 10, the acceptance of the Kittredge property. If it is voted no then this conversation is a waste of time.

Jewell Fogg said she is not a patient person and the one thing she has heard the most on this is that people feel it will be where the Kittridge house is. Jewell told Brien and Eddy that is not the case and you two can sit there and say that you did not know about any of this but she did not believe them. Linda asked Chuck if he commissioned the map. Chuck said the Trahan's commissioned it. Mike Doucette said he is not getting any heartburn over that tonight. Town Manager Chuck Connell said there is not now nor has there ever been the contention that the Police Department would go there. Brien said there would not be two conflicting presentations. Richard asked if there is going to be an amendment to Article 3. Brien said the only amendment would be the water line and sprinkler system.


Richard said the only reason he is doing this is because he wants it to work. Brien said he could say to the voters that this is a complete project. Art Tighe asked about the generator, you have not talked about the generator. Brien said this meeting is not just about the generator. Brien said it is not a deal breaker to him. Eddy said that as far as the generator is concerned if it breaks down we have to replace it. Richard said he has to meet with his committee.

Brien said the he was ready to go ahead with motion for $129,000. Sharon Craigie said that at this late date you have the right to amend what ever you want. You present your amendments and we will present ours. Richard asked Brien who would make the motion. Brien advised that he would make the motion and that Eddy would second the motion. Brien said the best way to be successful is if we stand united. Eddy said that he thought it was better we did this here instead of at the meeting.

A citizen asked why does tonight have anything to do with the property. Town Manager Chuck Connell said that there are actually two properties being donated. This led into a discussion regarding easements on the Kittridge property. Richard asked the selectmen that if they make the amended proposal and it fails would they continue to support Article 3. Richard went on to say that the sprinkler was the wish of the three selectmen. Eddy said he does not know if he would support it if it fails. Eddy said he is supporting the people. Brien said we are on the same page he will make the same commitment. Brien said you either go in together and if the voters say no then he can say this is what the voters wanted.

Selectman Brien Ward placed the motion to move $44,937 to the default budget in the category of the part time and call Fire Department default budget. Brien said there was an error where the $39,000 was put in as wages and wage related activities. Brien said they want to make sure the $39,000 is in the default budget.

Sharon Craigie wanted to know if is true that the DRA will be reviewing the default budget to check for errors. Sharon said they would correct mistakes where things have been added or left out. Town Manager Chuck Connell said the DRA does not necessarily review default budgets.

Vice Chairman Eddy Moore placed the motion to adjourn at 4:45 PM
Selectman Brien Ward seconded the motion.

Meeting adjourned at 4:45 PM

Respectfully submitted
Ceil Stubbings
Executive Secretary


Vice Chairman Eddy Moore


Selectman Brien Ward

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